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|Monday January 19, 2004 |
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If Trudeau was alive he'd run for the NDP: Layton
The socialist
leader running against Dennis Mills, the Forrest Gump of the Liberal Party
If Pierre Elliott Trudeau were alive, today
"heıd be running for the NDP," says NDP Leader Jack Layton. The idea of
Trudeau running for the NDP might seem bizarre for some. But these days,
anything is happening in federal politics. Sheila Copps, for one, has lately
been toying with the idea of running as an NDP candidate, after she accused
senior Liberal organizers of rigging the rules to stop her from winning the
Grit nomination.
Layton has high hopes for the future of his party, and he is convinced that
in the upcoming federal election he can do much better than getting the
support of only 8.5 per cent of the electorate as in the 2000 election,
although the most recent public opinion polls put his party at 15 per cent
nationally which had not changed since October.
"Mr. Martin is a conservative leading the Liberal Party and, the defections
of MPs like Scott Brison and Keith Martin confirms just that," he told The
Hill Times in an interview in Toronto.
Mr. Layton said he believes that Canadian politics will soon be reduced to a
two-party system, with the New Democrats representing the left spectrum of
the new system, even though he prefers a proportional representation in the
House.
Mr. Layton also talked about his programs, his hopes, and his decision to
run in the riding of Toronto-Danforth to fight the incumbent and Liberal MP
Dennis Mills in a wide-ranging interview. He is a very active and popular
Member of Parliament, who, at times looks like the Forrest Gump of the
Liberal Party: always running for something he genuinely and passionately
believes but, at times, difficult for others to grasp.
Mr. Layton, you had a good conversation with Ms. Copps.
"Oh yeah, we had a good talk. I was calling because I was very concerned the
way the Liberal Party was treating her. Iıve known Sheila for many, many
years. The Liberal Party is leaving behind people who believed in the old
Liberal Party of Trudeau and Pearson."
What did you tell her?
" ŒI need people like you. You and the people supporting you must know that
we have room for all of you there. People with your values really belong to
us now.ı"
And her answer was?
"She didnıt give me a direct answer. We should be in touch."
Talking about people on the left, within the Liberal Party. What are the
differences between you and Dennis Mills?
"The differences are really quite significant. He belongs to a party now led
by a very, very conservative leader. And, I believe even Dennis recognizes
that. I must say I was very surprised to see Dennis coming out on the last
day to support Paul Martin. The new Prime Minister is a conservative leading
the Liberal Party. And we can see it by the first act in government. The
first thing he did was to make sure that the big tax cut went through. The
impact on corporations, as of Jan. 1, is a tax cut of $4.4-billion. That is
not what a Liberal would do when the government revenues are tight and we
need to invest in our communities. He says that it is complicated and we
have no money when we talk about cities and support for transportation and
housing. How come he didnıt say that to corporate Canada, like Ontario
Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty did? Thatıs the first difference between me
and Dennis. He has chosen to hang his hat on a political party which has
expunged any of the progressive elements that might have been there under
Pierre Trudeau in the early days. I joined the Liberal Party in 1968 in
Québec, the NDP barely existed there, and it was because of the idealism and
the sense, the sense of intervention, the minority government he formed with
the New democratic Party and David Lewis in 1972 that started our housing
program, the Foreign Investment Review, started an energy program for
Canada, a real sense of Canadian sovereignty: all of those ideas are gone."
Is there anything more?
"In addition, weıve been working hard for the homeless and for affordable
housing and Dennis and I have taken a quite different position on that. We
need more shelters, we need affordable housing, and the people in my riding
feel that very strongly. Recently he has been opposing a shelter in the
area, one in particular Iım trying to promote. We also have differences on
the Harbour Commission. We have differences in some of those issues."
But he is very strong and respected in his riding. Wouldnıt it be better and
easier for you to run elsewhere?
"Iıve never considered that. I do not know why I should. I believe that the
Liberals in Toronto have been silent for years when it comes to helping our
city. They had some pr activity, but no Liberal should be immune. They are
all part of Paul Martinıs team. Furthermore, Iıve my base of support in the
area Iıve represented as has Dennis Mills."
Is it tougher to defeat Dennis Mills or Paul Martin?
"Martin, of course, is backed by a large corporate financial backing. He has
a war chest he has built as a result of that massive amount of money, and he
is the challenge. Iım not running against Dennis Mills, Iım the leader of a
national party and I am running against Paul Martin."
If Pierre Trudeau was alive, would he vote for the Liberal Party?
"Not a chance. He would be running for the NDP. I have absolutely no doubts
about it. Look at the approach to immigration taken by our government today,
compared to what it was under Trudeau. I know about so many people that have
voted Liberal because they remember Trudeau as the man who said, ŒWe want
you all into the country.ı Multiculturalism was celebrated. Now we see a
completely different attitude. Families have difficulty reuniting. We donıt
understand that in many countries families are close. Maybe we are
forgetting that in North America."
Talking about family reunions, will your wife Olivia Chow run federally in
the Toronto riding of Trinity-Spadina and join you in Ottawa?
"There is a lot of speculation about that. Much will depend on how things
will unfold in the new council she is focusing and working very hard on. Of
course there are people who feel her voice in Ottawa would be a powerful
voice. She has to make that decision."
So, it is not ruled out.
"You will never rule things out in politics. In the next few months weıll
see."
Especially in Ontario, I see some friction amongst unions and the support to
the NDP. Whatıs going on?
"I can only speak at the national level. There is a very, very strong united
view about the support for the New Democratic Party from the union movement.
They have been financially supportive. Of course that came to an end on Dec.
31."
Is it going to be hard on your organization?
"Financially itıs definitely going to be hard for us. They were used to back
up our loans with the banks. Between 30 to 40 per cent of our money would
come from the unions."
But you are going to be more independent.
"Of course we will be much more independent and, in many ways, I think
thatıs good. However, I can tell you that the leadership of the unions is
supporting us."
You have been involved a lot in municipal politics. What are you going to
do, as a national leader, to help municipalities?
"Our job is to push the urban agenda to the forefront. Paul Martin knows
that. The main reason I was coming to Ottawa is because I was watching these
communities struggle, despite that they have many solutions to propose and
ideas to implement. The problem is that the resources arenıt there, just
with the property tax. They collect 7 cents on every tax dollar. Provincial
and federal governments collect 93 cents. Yet, municipalities are supposed
to move you around, put a roof on your head, educating your kids and more
and more. They need resources. Look at other countries, especially European
countries. Financing municipalities is like putting oil into the engine.
"Travelling in our cities, compared with what it was in the 1970s, it is
like night and day. With Paul Martin, we go nowhere. He is always a big
thinker, with big ideas and new deals. But when it comes down to actions, it
becomes always complicated. He says that we have to take a look at this, we
have to examine that. There is nothing complicated about giving some gas
tax, backing the cities for the transportation. Cities need to have more
capabilities and more powers. However, the bottom line is that they need
more money."
But municipalities respond to provinces, not to Ottawa.
"The federal government has to change the approach and recognize that we
have a national challenge: homelessness and affordable housing across the
country: where is it going to be felt? In the cities and the people in the
cities know how to do this. Let Canadians go, they will accomplish great
things. This is what we have been saying for 10 years when Paul Martin was
Minister of Finance. He was telling us, ŒWe canıt do anything because we
have no money.ı But when he was faced with a surplus he said he was going to
use it for tax cuts. A very, very conservative point of view. They believe
in the magic of the private sector solving the problems."
In which country do you see your idea of the socialism in action?
"We can have our own brand here in Canada. We have our history. We have
social democracy, democrat socialism emerges from Saskatchewan with Tommy
Douglas, and has already had a huge impact on Canada. When you ask Canadians
what they most like about their country, many will say the medicare system:
thatıs a Canadian invention from the NDP. We have something to offer to the
other countries in terms of what we do here. Of course we can learn a lot,
from northern European countries like Sweden and Denmark, especially in the
energy and environment sectors. As for some of the southern European
socialist countries they are putting a huge emphasis on culture and the
arts. They see it as part of the infrastructure of a successfully
functioning city. We need to do that, in Canadian socialism. We look at a
new country leader like Lula in Brazil and what he is doing around community
democracy, and standing up to the Americans on trade issues. They believe it
is not just about squeezing as much money for the multinationals, itıs about
fair trade, workersı rights, human rights, labour standards, environmental
standards. So, I canıt give you one example, but I thing we have the
opportunity to draw our own history."
Anything to borrow from Tony Blair?
"Of course Iım extremely opposed to his stand on Iraq, but there are some of
public initiatives I really like, for example in health care."
In many European countries, socialist parties are challenged by the Green
Party. Do you expect some of those challenges here in Canada?
"The best thing to do is to have a very strong environmental agenda. And we
do. Iım pretty well-known for my position on environmental issues. We
already have the past national leader of the Green Party of Canada and some
of the senior executives, who have said, not because they are critical of
the Green Party, that it makes more sense to come and be part of the Jack
Layton New Democratic Party. And we, of course, make sure that the agenda of
the Green Party, within the NDP is strong. Second, the old battles of the
workers and the environmentalists have changed and they work together a lot
more."
Do you support the proportional representation and changing the voting
system, giving more voices to smaller parties?
"We very strongly support proportional representation which would open the
door for Canadians that felt we were not strong enough on one issue to be
supporting another party. This would generate a coalition government which
works extremely well in Europe. I am very disappointed that Paul Martin did
not support our motion on a referendum with Canadian people on whether they
would like to move to a proportional representation system. If we were to be
part of a minority government it would be the first condition to hold a
referendum on proportional representation."
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